VManOfMana
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5/VMN ? The True Eternal
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Post by VManOfMana on Feb 22, 2006 15:19:16 GMT -5
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Post by Festival6667 on Feb 22, 2006 18:20:21 GMT -5
Yeah I know, and until today I didn't give shit about rumors of a ps2 port but insert-credit too reported that porting news (though it might be by other ppl than sega.. for all I care anyway since 1- all I want is a good port 2- I play much more EFZ than MB since memorial was released)
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Post by linalys on Feb 22, 2006 19:35:51 GMT -5
Ecole has a statement about this on their on board. No idea what it says exactly, but there's a 60% in there.
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fia
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Post by fia on Feb 24, 2006 0:45:07 GMT -5
Since most of the doujin players have a thing for Melty Blood, I tried to do the same and bought both MB and MB:ReAct. Well, I don't know but, I just don't feel the game to be ... great? Good, but not great like EFZ. My reasonings:
1. The characters being a little too generic. Not much characters with a unique gameplay behind game, making it so “commercial”. 2. One of the doujin games with that many clone characters. Some of the characters and their twisted clones share quite a similarity(Eg: The shikis) that makes me think of Capcom’s shotokans. 3. The Heat and Blood Heat mode are creative, but very limited. The fact Heat Mode automatically triggers makes it compulsive for the player to go into Blood Heat or end up losing 150% circuit. Of course, the player can choose to spam EXs during auto-Heat mode, but I will prefer Mode changing like Touhou: IaMP – where you can declare cards anytime you want, and not limited to a certain duration. 4. There is also another issue about balance. Some of the characters will always end up as the low tier, Warcrueid for example.
Not to sound blunt and such, but is the game famous for the very fact it is based on a hot trendy anime littered with vampires and vampire hunters? I will need someone to convince me why it is not so...
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Post by linalys on Feb 24, 2006 2:22:25 GMT -5
1. The characters being a little too generic. Not much characters with a unique gameplay behind game, making it so “commercial”.
Your favored EFZ isn't really any more unique. While the character variety is good, EVERYTHING is copied. There is no unique gameplay.
2. One of the doujin games with that many clone characters. Some of the characters and their twisted clones share quite a similarity(Eg: The shikis) that makes me think of Capcom’s shotokans.
I think now at v2.501b there are significant enough differences between the characters and their Tatari compliment. Though yeah a lot of people are going to dislike that lots of the cast are similar to one another like the shotokans are to each other.
3. The Heat and Blood Heat mode are creative, but very limited. The fact Heat Mode automatically triggers makes it compulsive for the player to go into Blood Heat or end up losing 150% circuit. Of course, the player can choose to spam EXs during auto-Heat mode, but I will prefer Mode changing like Touhou: IaMP – where you can declare cards anytime you want, and not limited to a certain duration.
IaMP is a very limited duration, it isn't declare any time you want. It's declare once, for so long based on how many levels of bar you have. Also based on your 150% comment you obviously aren't up to date with the latest version of MBR:FT.
4. There is also another issue about balance. Some of the characters will always end up as the low tier, Warcrueid for example.
Warc was always good. She's widely considered top tier now even. So while your complaint about balance is valid, your example is not. But all fighting games have tiers. Some characters will always be low tier, I don't see any point here.
Not to sound blunt and such, but is the game famous for the very fact it is based on a hot trendy anime littered with vampires and vampire hunters? I will need someone to convince me why it is not so...
Sorry, it's based on the wildly popular doujin game Tsukihime and not an anime. If you don't like the game (MBR) fine. Lots of people don't and I'm not going to try and convince you. But I dislike it when people make false accusations or just stupid ones.
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fia
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Post by fia on Feb 24, 2006 4:11:33 GMT -5
Your favored EFZ isn't really any more unique. While the character variety is good, EVERYTHING is copied. There is no unique gameplay. I might be wrong, but I had not known of the Blood mechanics of Ikumi found in any other games. My word "being generic" is that each character seems to follow the basic fighting game genre, without any more unique mechanics(As in GGXX#reloaded, Zappa's ghost summon and Jam's skill charging.) Proven guilty on those parts, since I had not patched that game just yet. I know that the game is based on the visual novel, and the reason I used the term "anime" is due to the fact that most know the anime more than the actual visual novel itself. Sorry if I did offend you in the previous post of mine, but I never have that intention to do so. And no, I am not accusing the game in any way or such. I just need someone who can see the actual charm of the game, which I have yet to see. There ought to be a reason to it that why EFZ pales in comparison to it by majority.
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VManOfMana
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5/VMN ? The True Eternal
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Post by VManOfMana on Feb 24, 2006 16:58:20 GMT -5
More popular does not imply better.
It is no secret that I favor EFZ a lot more than MB, but that's because when it comes to doujin fighters my fighting game fandom is above my anime fandom. At the end, it is not hard to see why Melty Blood is more popular. It looks prettier. It is based on a franchise(s) that has a lot more exposure in the U.S. It is a lot more newbie friendly. It has 'badass' characters. It doesn't has a semi-SD look. It runs at a higher resolution. It has higher production values. It has been ported to arcade. Type-Moon has managed to go pro. It has been torrented a lot more (non-objective impression). Simply put, Tsukihime's characteristics are more appealing to the 'mainstream' American anime fandom that MOON/ONE/Kanon/AIR combined. There is a reason why the Tsukihime and Fate animes are licensed, while the Kanon and AIR anime are not.
Once you understand that the people likely to find either MBR and EFZ are not likely to be serious fighting game players, you can easily answer your own questions.
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Post by Festival6667 on Feb 24, 2006 18:11:04 GMT -5
Woah, now that was some talk !
Just 'd like to mention Tsukihime and Fate as anime are more appealing. Who in the US or in Europe actually played the games or had any interest in the real story execpt a few fans... I mean, the real story of Tsukihime is really better imho, but it's japanese-only. And were it not, it still wouldn't be mainstream at all (all those who know it know why I say that...) Even in Japan, I'm far from being sure it can be considered as really mainstream (though there is certainly a much larger public given the much larger number or otaku/fans/robots/strange-but-somehow-cute-aliens in Japan)
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VManOfMana
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5/VMN ? The True Eternal
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Post by VManOfMana on Feb 24, 2006 20:02:01 GMT -5
I shouldn't have used the term 'mainstream'. What I meant to say is the kind of people that goes to places like 4chan, hongfire, etc., which are not really mainstream in the sense of 'typical people who get their anime ion mainstream media like Cartoon Network' but for me are in the sense that 'make the bulk of people who make the American anime fandom'.
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fia
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Post by fia on Feb 26, 2006 4:43:00 GMT -5
More popular does not imply better. It is no secret that I favor EFZ a lot more than MB, but that's because when it comes to doujin fighters my fighting game fandom is above my anime fandom. At the end, it is not hard to see why Melty Blood is more popular. It looks prettier. It is based on a franchise(s) that has a lot more exposure in the U.S. It is a lot more newbie friendly. It has 'badass' characters. It doesn't has a semi-SD look. It runs at a higher resolution. It has higher production values. It has been ported to arcade. Type-Moon has managed to go pro. It has been torrented a lot more (non-objective impression). Simply put, Tsukihime's characteristics are more appealing to the 'mainstream' American anime fandom that MOON/ONE/Kanon/AIR combined. There is a reason why the Tsukihime and Fate animes are licensed, while the Kanon and AIR anime are not. Once you understand that the people likely to find either MBR and EFZ are not likely to be serious fighting game players, you can easily answer your own questions. So, to put it short, MBR is actually famous due to all that fanbase? Quite a disappointment to me for such a highly acclaimed title.
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Post by Festival6667 on Feb 26, 2006 5:12:49 GMT -5
Are you sure we're reading the same text? All VMan said is that MB was highly likely to be more popular than EFZ because it's global background, including the anime, was more attractive to the anime fanbase in general, providing the game a (potential) pool of players much larger than EFZ will probably (if not absolutely certainly) ever have.
Now Vman, correct me if I interpreted wrongly your words.
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fia
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Post by fia on Feb 26, 2006 5:44:10 GMT -5
Are you sure we're reading the same text? All VMan said is that MB was highly likely to be more popular than EFZ because it's global background, including the anime, was more attractive to the anime fanbase in general, providing the game a (potential) pool of players much larger than EFZ will probably (if not absolutely certainly) ever have. Now Vman, correct me if I interpreted wrongly your words. Well, from what I read, the reasons why Melty Blood is more hyped are: It looks prettier. It is based on a franchise(s) that has a lot more exposure in the U.S. It is a lot more newbie friendly. It has 'badass' characters. It doesn't has a semi-SD look. It runs at a higher resolution. It has higher production values. It has been ported to arcade. Type-Moon has managed to go pro. It has been torrented a lot more (non-objective impression). Simply put, Tsukihime's characteristics are more appealing to the 'mainstream' American anime fandom that MOON/ONE/Kanon/AIR combined. Seems like this game is more aimed to the fans than to fighting gamers alike. Well, maybe because I was viewing it from a gamer's point-of-view, that I don't find it that attractive.
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Post by Festival6667 on Feb 26, 2006 11:12:53 GMT -5
Well, I hadn't clearly understood your point of vue. This being said, I'd say the game is indeed more aimed to fans tahn fighting gamers... but it's not completely a bad thing given what part of the market the fighting gamers (who on top that buy games) are.
As for the game being attractive to a competitive fighter (which I suppose you are to some extent, even if you didn't participate in tourneys)... well certainly it's engine can't compare to EFZ in terms of depth but it's about on par with quite a few good games on the market (not to mention that it's better animated than about every game except SF3, got real good graphics and gfx, decent music and sfx, funnily a good background and story -which is about never the case in a fighting game but it's not like we care so much).
So technically, the only real flaw I see is the lack of a bit of depth in the engine. Of course, i could add the clone aspect, but at least the tatari versions now have movelists globally different enough from their regular counterparts. so wouldn't argue too much on that (well a change of clothes would have been good but it's quickly some huge work on the sprites). I could also wonder if the majority of females and the global chara design is a good idea to attract competitive fighters who are used to nearly the exact opposite, but I don't think it's a major liability.
Well, that's just my way of seeing things anyway.
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fia
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Post by fia on Feb 27, 2006 8:48:31 GMT -5
I am not in any tourneys you know of due to the fact that I live in the tropical part of the globe. Thus, I am much far away from you guys, rendering netplay impossible. I will not consider myself a real expert, though.
I am more a gamer, who tries various games, and spends time on titles which keep me interested. The games will be those which are considered unique and stand-out from their own genre. Sometimes, I do tests with the characters I am interested and then write out informations which others had not known.(For example, all Robo Ky's lvl 1 command moves(Including Vapor Thrust and Pony) heat him up, and how players should not whiff command grab too often, as it uses up 1 tension block per activation.) But I rarely do now after some cold treatments from elitists(Who, in my opinion, view one with little posts as nothing but a newbie.).
The reason why EFZ is unique to me, is in how well Tasofro is able to take cream-of-the-crop from various games into one game, while ensuring a balance among the characters. Veteran gamers will be able to see the mechanics included, from titles like Jojo's Bizarre Adventure(Little Mai a pseudo Star Platinum, and Minagi plays like D'Bo[Some debate she is Eddie, but she fits D'Bo & Ebony Devil more.) and Last Blade(Rumi Nanase is a hybrid of Amano and Kanzaki Juzoh, plus a little from Kabuki Klash as well.) to name a few.
As for those who might say my favor for EFZ is due to the fact that I favor Kanon, AIR and ONE, I will have to disagree with you. I was exposed to the game(EFZ) first, before I got interested in searching about the titles it is based on(Thanks to Vman's thread in SRK for most informations.)
That being said, my exposure to Melty Blood is much like my exposure to EFZ. I have no slightest idea about story itself, and no, not even my favor for vampirism boosts my interest for it. The graphic quality is more like a compulsory for a current game. Voice actors are fine, but sometimes I find that they are not synched right with the sprites(Like, sometimes I see S. Nanaya's mouth remains agape, while there are no words out.).
Lastly, I suggest a mod to move this discussion to another new thread to prevent further deviation from the thread's main subject.
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VManOfMana
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5/VMN ? The True Eternal
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Post by VManOfMana on Feb 27, 2006 21:38:51 GMT -5
Festival: you perfectly got what I meant to say.
fia: Although I understand your view, keep in my mind that at the end, these are doujin games. Doujin games can be considered a representation of fandom: made by fans for fans. At the end, EFZ is a game made by Key fans for Key fans, and Melty Blood is a game made for Type Moon fans. They appeal to fans of the series firsts, fans to fighting games second. Anime fans may just mash and get over the game when their next favorite series appears, but fighting game fans are the ones that end up playing after some time. Problem is, having those fighting game fans try the game for the first time. Yukinoze's Melty Blood replays did not come out until 2.009.
I could argue that ultimately, what makes people still play EFZ after more than four years is the fact that it is a good game. But that doesn't take out the fact that in most cases, what made people play EFZ in the first place is the fact that it has Key characters. EFZ was my first exposure to Key (sorta), but what made me try it for the first time was its look. My respect for the gameplay came later. Yes, EFZ and Melty Blood are comparable to commercial games in terms of quality, but that is not the norm of doujin games. Commercial games cannot take the luxury of making games 'just because'. And commercial games often cannot have the luxury of being updated so much. EFZ was not a balanced game at the first try. More than one version had certain level of 'brokeness' on it.
I suppose that the Guilty Gear scene in the U.S. is very similar to what we see in EFZ and MB. The game is likely to be tried by anime fans first, and its looks actually are a turnoff to several 'serious players'. But it is not after people start the game that they really appreciate how good it is of a fighter.
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